Alex Turner on Leaving Google DeepMind and Disagreements with Yudkowsky

Dr. Alex Turner (@TurnTrout) is an AI safety researcher with pioneering work in activation steering and power-seeking theory. He recently resigned from Google DeepMind over the issue of unrestricted military use of AI. Alex thinks that technical alignment research is going “super awesome” relative to his 2021 projections, doesn’t explicitly endorse the PauseAI movement, and sees many flaws in Yudkowsky's List of Lethalities. I interviewed him about: Leaving Google DeepMind on principle His mainline AI doom scenario Disagreements with Yudkowsky's List of Lethalities Support inside AI companies for coordinating to pause AI Some additional context Alex wanted to note: I think alignment is going "super awesome" compared to the world I thought​ we were in in 2021, where it was basically impossible. I'm not super pleased objectively speaking. And in fact soon after [recording our interview on July 21] I updated towards harder due to the security incidents and the "hardcore" aspect of AI goal pursuit relative to prompt intensity. Video Audio/Podcast Listen on Spotify, search “Doom Debates” in your podcast player, download the mp3 file, or open the Podcast RSS feed in your app of choice. Transcript Cold Open Liron Shapira 00:00:00 You resigned from Google DeepMind because you think that Google DeepMind, quote, “Broke its founding promise through its contract with the US military.” Alex Turner 00:00:08 I value staying true to your values. People who are well-known within Google for caring about the ethics of deploying AI largely didn’t act. This matters because autonomous weapons get us into an arms race that really degrades the security of everyone in the world. Liron 00:00:26 Do you support the Pause AI movement? Alex 00:00:28 I think that AI is being developed too quickly. I probably will not take an affirmative on supporting this particular movement. Liron 00:00:35 Let’s segue into the schism, your disagreement with Eliezer Yudkowsky. Alex 00:00:39 He was incorrect on some points for alignment, but then also not acknowledging that. I think that technical alignment has gone pretty awesome, super awesome. Liron 00:00:49 You’re not claiming that a superintelligent AI can’t kill everybody. You’re like, “Oh yeah, of course it can, but we’re not gonna break the chain of alignment, meaning we’re just going to safely develop it so that even though it can kill everybody, it won’t.” Alex 00:01:00 Develop it in a way that produces a safe result. I wouldn’t call what we’re doing safe development, but sure. Introducing Alex Turner Liron 00:01:15 Welcome to Doom Debates. My guest has worked in technical AI safety at Google DeepMind for two and a half years, but he just quit, and his resignation is going viral. Why? Alex Turner says Google DeepMind, quote, “Broke its founding promise through its contract with the US military.” His latest blog post exposes hypocrisy at the highest levels of senior leadership at Google DeepMind, which includes the CEO Demis Hassabis, chief scientist Jeff Dean, and co-founder Shane Legg, among others. Alex is a world-class AI alignment researcher. He completed a PhD in alignment from Oregon State University. He did a postdoc at UC Berkeley, and he’s earned top distinctions at NeurIPS. I respect that Alex is principled. I respect his mastery of the subject matter that we talk about on this show. I also find it interesting that he’s levied criticism at the original AI alignment thinker, Eliezer Yudkowsky. He’s called some of Yud’s claims fundamentally misguided, not reasonable, and bogus. As a Yudkowskian myself, I’m gonna be curious to dig into those arguments. And of course, we’ll cover what’s going on right now at Google DeepMind and why he resigned. Alex Turner, welcome to Doom Debates. Alex 00:02:28 Hey, thank you for having me. From Harry Potter Fanfic to AI Alignment Liron 00:02:30 So it’s great to get you on the show. One thing we do on Doom Debates is we expose top intellectuals who have been pretty familiar to the rationality community or the AI safety community, and we help popularize their ideas, even if I don’t fully agree with all of them. Is that a good description of your background? You’ve been pretty deep into the LessWrong rationality and alignment community for a while. Alex 00:02:52 Yeah, I think it was quite formative. It was just the other day in 2016 where I decided to search what are the top five Harry Potter fan fictions. And that indeed led me down the LessWrong rabbit hole, where I discovered superintelligence in late 2017, and then I pivoted my PhD in early 2018. From that time period up through maybe early 2023, LessWrong was very central to my professional career, but also just to the way I looked at the world. Liron 00:03:25 Well, I wanna follow up on why did you search for Harry Potter fan fictions? Alex 00:03:30 I really don’t know. It’s kind of one of those things where if I hadn’t done it, my life would be totally different. The reason I’m mentioning this i